What makes a city builder game, a city builder game?

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[City Builder]

I'm curious as to other people's opinions when it is that a game stops being a city builder game and starts being a totally different game, perhaps we can throw out some names of games that we would consider to be really close to being a city builder but not quite there anymore.

For example would you consider Tropico to be a city builder game or would you consider to be a game in its own genre?  In my opinion Tropico is a city builder game because it has everything that a city builder game should have.  You have to place buildings on the map you have finances to deal with and of course you get the cute little peeps running around.

Your opinions?

[Oregon Taz]

Monopoly Tycoon is a CB in that you build housing and businesses and the peeps get what they want/need themselves. It is very heavy in economics which is one of the things I like in CivCity: Rome. But it's only borderline BC.
BTW, I'm having trouble beating the AI after the first few "chapters". Anyone have any suggestions?

[City Builder]

hahahaha, sorry, but I never made it past maybe 2 or 3 chapters at best in MT.

I guess we need to refine what the definition of a city builder games is otherwise we've opened the doors wide open if we leave it at the placement of buildings, little peeps running around and finances to take care of.

What else makes a CB game, a CB game?

[MHBrands]

I dunno, but if you leave it at buildings, people and finances, then games like Zoo Tycoon, Roller Coaster Tycoon, Ski Lodge Tycoon (and pretty much anything with Tycoon as part of the name all become CB games.

[City Builder]

Unless of course we take into account the word "city" which is critical.  Games such as Ski Resort Tycoon could indeed be considered a city building game because in real life there are ski resorts that are their own cities and offer the ammenities that which another more traditional city would offer, such as hotels, restaurants, public parks etc.

But game such as Zoo Tycoon I think would be strethching even though there are some zoos in the world that are large enough to be it's own city And certainly there are some amusement parks that are large enough to be their own cities and some offer enough ammenities to be just about self contained as far as the visitor is concerned.

Hmmm.... I guess I didn't make it any better with the above stuff only more complicated. 

[MHBrands]

Do the Civilization games count? You do build cities in those even if your people only walk around outside of them. You also build farms, set up economies, and mess with finances. Biggest difference is that the cities are only seen as a single graphic with the various buildings painted in - Except in Civ IV which allows each city to have teensy little buildings around it's perimeter...

[City Builder]

Good Points!

The line gets blurred even more now.

I list Stronghold here on the forums as a city builder, but many people wouldn't consider it that, and would more consider it to be a castle builder, and the more I think about it, the more I think I agree with that, so......  Poof! The stronghold boards goes to other games. 

I find it somewhat disturbing that I can't pinpoint exactly what makes a city builder game a city builder game and how the lines could be crossed easily by many many games and yet the popular notion of a city builder has a handfull of games that are popularly placed into the city building genre.

[Strix]

Throws in Railroad Tycoon and Sid Meier's Railroads. These seem to have element of citybuilding in them

[MHBrands]

Very true, and I have played both. I think you can negate Zoo Tycoon/Ski Lodge Tycoon, etc not because they don't have 'city' in them but because they don't have an eco-culture. You don't grow your own food in either of them. Railroad tycoon though you do grow food, buildings to store it, transportation to move it, and homes for the workers - it would be similar to the Patrician series only by rail rather than by sea.

Civ IV now does have it's own 'worker buildings' as you can build villages which grow into towns and produce income, but you do not really have the variety and no one tends the farms and livestock once they are 'discovered/gathered/penned up' so perhaps that wouldn't count either.

I have no clue about Sim City because I never had but the original one, and that one did build buildings, but did not grow it's own food. It is a city though and says so right in the name, so that blows my whole theory.... next!

[City Builder]

I think there is also Locomotion by Chris Sawyer, it involves cities, and they do have farms and industry and you transport commerce by rail.

Jowoods Industry Giant is another one, in that you have cities (however abstract they might be) and industry and agriculture and you transport the commerce around, but you dont place individual buildings in either of these, so that probably throws them out the door as well.

Perhaps one more qualification of a CB game might be that you have to have the ability to place individual buildings that serve a purpose for a city.  Which I think would throw out Railroad Tycoon, other than you can buy some industrys but I dont recall actually being able to place them myself.