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[Lengo]

This is odd!  I found a comparision of PCIe vs AGP. AGP outperforms PCIe according to this site's benchmarks of various games. Now, I'm totally confused, becuase it's said that the PCIe offers higher bandwidth. Methinks the PCIe is easier to manufacture, and that's the reason that people are moving toward it. There's more vid cards available in PCIe than AGP, but if this site is correct about AGP outperforming PCIe, then that's a shame. Still, you can't SLI AGP cards.

Bang for the buck, in my opinion, is the Geforce 7600 XT. It is $100 cheaper than the 7800 GS, but the 7800 gives you twice as many pixel pipelines as the 7600. And as far as suffixes, any card that ends in T (XT) is a faster chipset than the S series (GS). Both the 17500 and 7800 offer Pixel Shader 3.0 support.

 I dunno about differences between a VIA driven board and nForce driven board, but VIA driven boards are being used for benchmark tests more often than nForce boards. I need to do a little more research about this.

I've got a new list. I've managed to knock a little off the price and am more confident about a tentative list. I've bumped up the memory to 2 GB at 4-4-4 timing (3-3-3 timing is MUCH more expensive).  At this writiing, the list consists of

ASUS M2N Socket AM2 NVIDIA nForce 430 MCP ATX AMD Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813131042

AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ Windsor 2.0GHz 2 x 512KB L2 Cache Socket AM2 Processor
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16819103735

CORSAIR XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16820145034

EVGA 256-P2-N615-TX GeForce 7600GT 256MB PCIe
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16814130062

Rosewill RV350 ATX 350W Power Supply 90-135 vrms
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817182006

Whaddaya think?

I'm gonna look at VIA driven boards, namely MSI's Neo series 9 and a socket 939 San Diego AMD Athlon 64 (not an X2).  I would, if I could, go to a 7800 XT but that costs an additional $100.

I'm pretty dang sure that it's not my drives, so I don't need to change them. I have run complete diagnostics on these, so I'm confident about them. I HIGHLY suspect my processor above all else, but then theres the vid card and memory, and lastly the power supply, so I've limited the list to just these things.

I'm very keen on the San Diego Athlon, but this is an OEM and so how to match a heatsink/fan is bothersome.  But I've seen a comparison of the San Diego vs a Venice and the difference in performance is slight, but significant. Also, I gotta look at a VIA mainboard with socket 939.

Now, one question. What's the difference between  nVidia nForce 430 and nVida nForce 520? ANd what's the difference between either of these and a VIA driven mainboard? I ONCE ahad a VIA driven mainboard, and I had nightmares getting the right drivers and getting them installed. I dunno if I wanna go there or not. You guys have any feedback on this?

[MaxBeta]

   That's some great research Lengo.

Since you've been a AMD user for so long, I figure your experience speaks for itself.  I like the reviews on Toms Hdw site too.. it's been there for a long time and is as credible as can be expected.

Those comparisons concerning PCIe and AGP..I'd take another look if I were you.  My opinion it is like comparing any aging tech..where both can do a task..with acceptable results.  Just accepting the one which has the capacity to do it in step with other advancing technologies. So hardware developers have to choose the direction.( as which slot) has the best future in this area. I used many AGP 8x G-Cards in my day..I had many a happy gaming moment with them.  So no out n out criticism from my corner of the ring.. hehe 

I'm still reading through some of your links.. good tech reading if you are into it.. which I usually am. 

[Lengo]

Well, it certainly looks like AGP is gonna be dead soon. And there's a possibility that I may end up one day with SLI.  I dunno. And I don't know about that site's credibility. They could be very biased and looking for excuses to stay with AGP.  Tom's Hardware has an article too, titled AGP is not dead yet, or sumpin' like that.

Tis all very confusing! I'm looking for most bang for the buck, and as few bucks as possible. It's awfully confusing determining what is right for me.

The good news is that my puter has only locked up four times today. Heck, it locked after POST and before Windows started. It locks when in IE, and  locks during games. I have not seen it lock when running Photoshop and my graphics browser. If I could get to the bottom of this, I could fix it easily. But software to analyze a PC is just as expensive as buying a rig, and you need to do it remotely from another PC so that when it locks you can look at the stack addresses and see where it failed.

Fortuanatle, my rich old man is gonna help me out. Still, I insist on keeping the price to a minimum. The above stuff comes to $391, but there's $55 in mail-in rebates. That's pretty good I think. NewEgg has a system that's similar with a 7600 GT. They want $699 for it. Dell and (egads!) Alienware are outta their freaking minds, pricing similar packages at $1100 and even more.  I guess if you don't know about 'puters and don't wanna learn, that's the easy way out.

But, back to my questions. What delivers better, nForce or VIA? Also a new queston pops up. Can you SLI on a 939 socket? That's probably irrelevant, but I'm curious.

Oh well, I'm getting by. The puter locks up now and then. My stereo works part time. My car is broken. My neck and stomach are broken. But I'm still getting by. I'm getting too good at that!

hmm... maybe I should try to find a 386SX!   

[City Builder]

Yes, you can SLI on a 939 socket.  But it depends on the video cards you choose.  Im running the 939 socket with my AMD 64X2 4600+ and with the 8800GTS cards it's fine, but if I went to dual 8800GTX cards my 939 socket cpu would be the bottleneck of the system.

As far as via or nforce, I prefer Nforce now.  It's a personal preference for me.  I've had many Via driven mainboards over the years, and while this DFI mainboard is my first Nforce board, I prefere it and it just sort of feels stronger and better supported.  But again for me, it's a personal preference and not based on any scientific experiments on my part.

I've read stories that AGP is not dead either.  But in my book it's long past dead, just like PCI was dead when AGP came out and PCI-e will be dead when the next revision of PCI-e comes out with more bandwidth. Personal thoughts only though and no experiemnts were done on my part to prove or disprove my opinions. 

Strange because I didn't have nearly as many computer problems back when I had my 286 computer.  I think the worst of my problems back then was a cmos battery that went dead and I didn't know anything about it, took the computer to a shop and they charged me like $150.00 to repair the computer.  I soon learned that they replaced the one battery for $1.57 and swore right then and there that I would dive in and learn everything I could about computers so that I'd never get taken like that again for a computer repair job.

[Lengo]

One thing about nForce -- the drivers are there where you expect to find them, and they install automatically, no muss, no fuss. That was not my experience with VIA. I hadda figger out which one was right, and how to install it. It was a real pain.

I think any CPU is gonna be the bottleneck if you have SLI. Until there's software to take advantage of X2 processors, the CPU is gonna be the slowest unit. Bus speeds are plenty fast now, but they used to be the bottleneck.

Well, I've locked up again, and this time it was very difficult to get up and running. So I gotta submit this to my dad and get it ordered while I still got a working system. So, I think I'll go with the above system. I only have one hesitation -- the processor. My current rig is a Barton which is 1 mb L2 cache. I certainly don't wanna slow things down at the bottleneck and give up that performance with a new rig (that should be faster than what I already have), but I see no San Diego's or Bartons at Newegg except for the 939 socket. I'll call 'em on Monday and ask if there is a AM2 processor with the San Diego core. Perhaps they're just out of stock. I may have to wait. And if there's a big price difference, I'll drop back to 1 Gb of mem to absorb some of the cost.

Anyways, thanks for your input. I feel more assured now.

Edit: OOPS! I was wrong. My XP 3000+ is a 512 Kb L2 cache, so I'll be fine!  AMD makes one processor with L2 = 1 gb, the AM2 socketed 6000 X2. It sells at Newegg for $215!  SHEESH!

Edit2: OOPS AGAIN! Erm. This is weird. The AMD 64 (not X2) 3800+ Orleans runs at 2.40 Ghz and runs cooler than the AMD 64X2 3800+ Windsor, whcih runs at 2.00 Ghz. WHUT? The Orleans L1 cache is 64 Kb. The Windor L1 cache is 128 kb. The Orleans' Thermal Design Power (TDP) is 62 watt, and the Windsor's TDP is 89 watts. WHUT?

How can this be? The Orleans runs faster and needs less cooling? Huh? Both are 90 nm

[City Builder]

Here's the informational stats on my CPU:

Field   Value
CPU Properties   
CPU Type   DualCore AMD Athlon 64 X2, 2400 MHz (12 x 200) 4600+
CPU Alias   Manchester
CPU Stepping   BH-E4
Instruction Set   x86, x86-64, MMX, 3DNow!, SSE, SSE2, SSE3
Original Clock   2400 MHz
Min / Max CPU Multiplier   4x / 12x
L1 Code Cache   64 KB per core  (Parity)
L1 Data Cache   64 KB per core  (ECC)
L2 Cache   512 KB per core  (On-Die, ECC, Full-Speed)
   
Multi CPU   
Motherboard ID   OEM00000 PROD00000000
CPU #0   AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4600+, 2411 MHz
CPU #1   AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4600+, 2411 MHz
   
CPU Physical Info   
Package Type   939 Pin uOPGA
Package Size   4.00 cm x 4.00 cm
Transistors   233.2 million
Process Technology   11Mi, 90 nm, CMOS, Cu, SOI
Die Size   199 mm2
Core Voltage   1.350 - 1.400 V
I/O Voltage   1.2 V + 2.5 V
Maximum Power   89 - 110 W  (depending on clock speed)
   
CPU Manufacturer   
Company Name   Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
Product Information   http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118,00.html

My CPU runs at about 34-39°c all the tiime, at 39° it's getting a work out in a 3D game, at 34° it's pretty much at idle.  For the most part it does okay by me.  I found what I was told prior to purchasing it to be true which was that I will really only notice the benefit of the dual core when doing multitasking like burning a CD and doing something else at the same time.  So far this is true, there is a benefit to that as it does seem smoother overall when tasking the CPU.

My next computer will end up being completely new with all new components.  There is only one step up for my 939 socket which I believe would be the 4800+ CPU which Im not going to bother with since it's rather pricey, but instead will end up getting a new mainboard, CPU, ram etc, but Im gonna wait for a while to see what else AMD comes up with this year and possibly early next year.

This information comes out of a program called Everest Unlimited : http://www.lavalys.com/  The program gives lots of interesting information as well as it will monitor the temperatures of different components in your computer which can be usefull.

[MaxBeta]

   I haven't kept up on the AMD's because I haven't used them that much..but have worked on numerous boxes that had them running.   As for the heat discrepancy between the single and duo core.. if they are like Intel the duo's always run hotter.. or so is the consensus.

Like CB suggests.. I use Everest somewhere along the way in every checkup and want to have insight info on exactly what's going on with certain aspects of my PC.

I also have some professional diagnosis enabled benchmarking software that fills in most of the gaps.  In my experience there's always a weak link somewhere.. just seems to be that way no matter what.

As for choosing the most effective CPU for Lengo.. this would be determined by what you do mostly with your box.  IF it is a little of everything..then I think the duo cores would be worth getting..so there's no out and out disappointment.  My way of finding satisfaction is to not expect my PC to do something I know well in advance that it cannot.. and I live with it.   

...needless to say, I've never had a "perfect PC"..and I've had quite a number of them over the years.  Good ones..yes.  disappointed on others..?  that's another yes.   

[Lengo]

Yeah, I do a litle of everything. I run Photoshop frequently, play and edit mp3 and wav files, play games, and am now putzing around with Gmax, a 3d editor that is very sweet! But my software is very dated. I'm running Photoshop 6. The sound editor is Cool Edit 2000.

I think there is much potential for a X2 processor, but I've searched the internet for 'dual processor applications' and 'X2 games'. I've foujnd nothing. In the future, it may prove to be worth it, but right now, at least a year since these have been out, there's nothing that takes advantage of them.

Also, I've re-read (earnestly now) the site about AGP vs PCIe. AGP wins hands down, in nearly every test. So, go try to find a X2 mainboard with an AGP slot. No can find! And I compared the price of a 7600 XT PCIe with a 7600 XT AGP. Guess which one is more expensive! The AGP card is a hundred dollars more.

Now the Orleans AMD 64 comes in two versions. One is for socket 754, and one is for socket AM2. The AM2 runs at 2000 Mhz. The 754 version runs at 2400 Mhz. The 754 socket board does not accept DDR2. It is limited to DDR and therefore, only 400 Mhz FSB.

Are yiou confused yet? I thought so! Well, here's the breakdown

X2 rig
DDR2 with FSB at 667 (effective FSB)
AMD X2 Orleans runs at 2000 Mhz
7600 GT PCIe card costs $99. This runs about 5% slower FPS than an AGP in overall tests.
1 Gb DDR2 Corsair XMS2 memory costs $66
Total cost: $319

Socket 754 rig
DDR with FSB at 400 (333 effective FSB)
AMD Orleans runs at 2400 Mhz
7600 GT AGP card costs $199
1 GB DDR Corsair XMS costs $131
Total cost $429

It's obvious that the X2 rig's biggest advantage is it's FSB speed. Th Socket 754 boasts a faster processor and significantly better graphics performance due to the AGP slot. I'mm pretty sure the old addage "you get you pay for" is applicable, but come on... a doubled FSB has an enormous advantage. So, which to pick?

Now, if only there was an AM2 socket with an AGP slot! I'd be sure of what to do! There would no question about it. But, I cannot find a mainboard anywhere that has accepts DDR2 and has an AGP slot.  So, what we have here, is one step forward, and one step backward. I'm very certain that the ONLY real advantage to PCIe is that it's cheaper to manufacture. Buyt you can SLI your 7x00 and later series cards IF YOU BUY TWO video cards -- again, the manufacturer's advantage. This sucks!

But guess what! Today I fired up the PC and it locked before Windows even started. Then it did it again. Then again! But I finally got it to boot, and figgered that even though Device Manager says all my system is great, it HAS to be my drivers. So I reinstalled everything and now it's working! It locked once after that, but I've been running all day with only one lockup. So I might have it fixed! I certainly hope so! But if it's not, I still dunno what to do.

Only three things are certain.

1. I like AGP. It's worked great for me with two different video cards. Why change that?
2. I would defnately like to have 256 Mb of vdeo memory vs. the 128 I have. I feel this is necessary for the next generation games. But, I can put one on this mainboard if it's working okay.
3. Oh man... an FSB at 667 MHz would definately be a plus!!

Now, if I could get a package with items 1-3 included, I'd be one happy camper. However, it's not available (at least to my knowlege). But if you see one -- TELL ME! I'll BREAK my friggin' computer for the excuse to buy one!    Maybe even two!

 

p.s. I't sort of like a bar of soap. The last time I bought some, I opened it up and found out that they had shrunk the size of the bars. I paid what I used to pay, but got less. Thus it is with PCIe, in my  opinion. The prices are down, so now you gotta buy more.

[City Builder]

My AMD 64X2 4600+ runs cooler then did my single core 3800+ by My 4600+ runs about 90°f  at idle and 111°f during 3d games, the old 3800+ use to run closer to 123°c at idle and about 130-135°f during 3d games.  All the Intels that I have run in general have run hotter then the AMD's that I've run over the years.   Of course could be many things that affect that.


But from what I've read in the past, the newer AMD's and Intels run at slower clock speeds now though they are faster, and they run cooler.  But take that with a grain of salt since we all know there are many falsehoods spread through the internet.

And you're right Lengo, I've yet to own a game that is specifically programmed to take advantage of the dual core CPU, whether they natively take advantage of using the dual core or not I don't know, I seem to think that they do to some degree but if they were programmed specifically, we would get better performance out of them.

As far as the performance difference betwen AGP and PCIe, if you're talking about 5%, then why bother really.  I mean heck, if Ceasar IV runs at 30FPS on the PCIe card, then it's only going to run 5% more FPS on the AGP, then you're looking at 31.5FPS (double check my math, 10% of 30 is 3, so 5% of 30 is 1.5, so 31.5FPS).  In my book that's not even worth worrying about.

[Lengo]

Yeah, cooler is definately better (if all other things remain constant). This will improve the lifespan of the processor.

Re falshoods. I dunno what to believe anymore. There's this and that opinion about everything, and then there's hype for the masses! I definately now believe that PCIe is a cost saving measure, and nothing more. To cahive the same FPS peformance, you gotta buy two cards to SLI. One can only ask themselves, why aren't the cards sold in pairs?

And why is everybody so keen on SATA? Parallel parking is MUCH faster! That's a no-brainer.