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Author Topic: Viewing Your First Person (Yourself)  (Read 324 times)
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CoconutKid
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« on: November 22, 2011, 07:55:14 AM »

Please Pardon My Transplanting
A Couple of Comments
 Looking around cautiously

...
Tell you what, playing as an Archer is a whole lot of fun, you have to stalk your prey and set up the shot and when you've levelled up a bit its a thrill dropping the critter half way in its charge without receiving any damage. Second question, is Skyrim played in 1st person perspective like Morrowind was - I seem to remember (missed Oblivion), or 3rd person which I prefer?

...
Honestly, I really dislike 1st person view in games, for all the time that I spend building my character and collecting cool looking armor etc, I want to see it as much as possible, plus I feel it allows me to see more around what is sneaking up on my character better than the tunnel vision of 1st person view.

Couldn't agree more, my sentiments exactly. I always find 1st person view ugly and can't abide those unrealistic hands /gun whatever flapping away hogging the screen - too distracting. Spoils it for me. ...

It seems to me that this rips the curtain away from one of the big questions that face game developers, "How is the player involved in the game?"

What pops up in my mind is the scene in the movie, "The Wizard of OZ/", when Dorothy and her friends are introduced to the Wizard and are quaking with fear at the awesome vision and sound -- but Toto runs forward growling, and pulls aside a curtain to reveal the 'wizard' seated at a desk, pulling levers and talking into a microphone. When the wizard realizes that his curtain has been ripped away, into the midrophone he says, "Pay no attention to that funny little man behind the curtain, I AM THE GREAT AND POWERFUL OZ! But his fakery is revealed.

How do you suppose the game designers decide on how to link the player to gameplay? Do they have a menu of various formats that have been tried and tested in the market? We have a couple of comments about preferences, but only in a limited number of options.

Is anyone interested in discussing this?   Questioning Questioning
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Khalan
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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2011, 08:23:06 AM »

This is just my inexpert opinion, but I think it depends quite a lot on both the individual game and the genre.  For example, the Call of Duty and Battlefield series aim to immerse the player in all the over the top light, sound and fury, so first person is the best for those particular types of games.  For a game like Batman: Arkham Asylum/City, players are more likely to want to see Batman doing all the cool moves that they can trigger, therefore third person is the better choice.

Basically, "do we want the player immersed in our theme park ride, or do we want the player to watch all the cool stuff their character can pull off?"

I can't think of any game in the modern sandbox type cars and guns genre that is first person - games like the GTA series, Saints Row, The Godfather, Scarface, Just Cause etc; it just doesn't seem to be the done thing.

The platforming genre is usually better in third person so players can better judge timing and distance; however games like Mirror's Edge prove that first person can work just fine.

Personally for The Elder Scrolls and Fallout series I prefer first person, as the sensation of living in the world is stronger.  I suppose for the player it's a case of "Do I want to be the character, or do I want to control the hero?"

On the topic of view preference, I much prefer to be a camera on top of a body rather than a camera floating in space with some arms stuck on.  Ie. if I look down I can see my torso and legs; games like Halo, Arma, and the Chronicles of Riddick do this, but it seems to be fairly rare.  It both grounds the player in the world, and allows the player to cast their own shadow, adding realism, as well as having the potential to interact physically with the world in a more realistic way.

That's about it for my 2am ramblings.
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CoconutKid
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2011, 09:11:05 AM »

@ Khalan

Thank you for a very informative survey. I don't have such a wide experience, so some of it is over my head. Let me pick a few phrases that captured a meaning that seems important to me.

<<both the individual game and the genre>> Surely enough, but I get lost in trying to understand the catalog of "genre."  Somehow, the player has to be an active force in the game, correct? In the simplest gambling device, the player at least has to drop a coin in a slot. So the third person in the Batman game is like a puppeteer?

Now, I'm not arguing - just trying to understand. The player can be "Dungeon Master" (third person, i.e. off screen) or the "Player Character" (first person, i.e. on screen) as opposed to "NPCs" (second persons, i.e. on screen). In war games, the scale determines the size of the player's command which may vary from individual soldier to national CiC.

<<sensation of living in the world>> Wow! This is the magic that the PC was supposed to provide which board games were supposed to lack. The board war-gamers (whether figures or chits) struggled to get players to "enter" the period and the limitations of sight and time compressed to the table top - etc. It was a dream of being able to look at a computer screen and see a reasonable simulation of what a unit commander could have seen on the battlefield and to receive information and to issue orders as the commander would have done. Somehow it doesn't seem to have gone that way.

<<the topic of view preference>> <<grounds the player in the world>> <<the potential to interact physically with the world in a more realistic way>>  I think you here reference only the first person, player as person and not puppet. I suspect making a pair of eyes looking out of a body at an artificial world takes a highly refined graphics program. Could it be that is why it is often poorly done, or just avoided -- defaulting to the puppet third person?

Thank you again for  interesting 2am ramblings.   Clapping Hands, Applause   Agreed Happy
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Khalan
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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2011, 10:43:03 AM »

Apologies for the long post:

<<both the individual game and the genre>> Surely enough, but I get lost in trying to understand the catalog of "genre."  Somehow, the player has to be an active force in the game, correct? In the simplest gambling device, the player at least has to drop a coin in a slot. So the third person in the Batman game is like a puppeteer?
What I mean by genre is how it affects choice of viewpoint.  For example, the strategy genre generally works much better in third-person or overhead view - including most of the city building games we play.  Of course there's games like Trenched on Xbox and Sanctum on PC which are a mix of strategy and action (fairly simple tower defence games) which nevertheless work quite well in first or third person.  There is also the Uprising and Battlezone series, and Hostile Waters: Anteus Rising, which have quite a bit of strategy in them but are played from 1st or 3rd person (and games that work like this are very rare).  It would be, however, highly difficult to play a game like Civ in 1st or even 3rd person view.

As a clarification, I see 1st and 3rd person views as controlling an individual entity, as opposed to overhead or strategic view where you control any number of different things.

Here's my take on common genres and their common views:
Action - 1st, 3rd
RPG - 1st, 3rd
Strategy - Overhead
Adventure - 3rd
Sports - 3rd
Simulation - 1st

A sim game (as in simulating the experience of driving or flying etc) lacking a 1st person mode would automatically disqualify it from the sim genre - it is seen as a highly necessary part of the simulation experience.  Sports games are most often in 3rd person view even for those games where you play a single player on the team; the comparative lack of spatial awareness that comes with 1st person hurts the gameplay.

Personally I feel more like a puppeteer or director / influencer when playing a 3rd person game.  Sometimes this is exactly what I want, it all depends on genre and playability.

Quote
<<sensation of living in the world>> Wow! This is the magic that the PC was supposed to provide which board games were supposed to lack. The board war-gamers (whether figures or chits) struggled to get players to "enter" the period and the limitations of sight and time compressed to the table top - etc. It was a dream of being able to look at a computer screen and see a reasonable simulation of what a unit commander could have seen on the battlefield and to receive information and to issue orders as the commander would have done. Somehow it doesn't seem to have gone that way.
Yes, unfortunately most games are still highly abstracted - if they weren't it would be necessary for a large amount of automation from the AI to be played in realtime; for example no real life battlefield commander tells each and every squad exactly where to go and what to shoot etc; they of course give general objectives but it is up to the squad leaders to carry out those objectives.

Most realtime wargames consist of telling a single squad at a time what to do while your dozens of other squads hold position.  Or otherwise pausing the game every few seconds to tell each of your hundreds of squads what to do.  The Total War series of games seem to handle this fairly well though.

It might be interesting to have a game that lets you set general objectives, similar to the Majesty series.

That sensation of 'living in the world' that I mentioned is for me personally very rare, and has only come with The Elder Scrolls games and some few others.  I remember back in the 90's playing a rally game on the original Playstation where I found a nice hill and drove slowly to the edge to watch the sunset.  Although the graphics were crude I still had that sensation.

The Need for Speed: Shift games give great visual feedback in the 1st person helmet cam views - the game is viewed as if through a helmet which has an actual physical presence, in that the driver is knocked and shifted around as the car moves or crashes.  It is highly effective, though some people don't like it of course, but standard bonnet cams and 3rd person views are also an option.

The second Kane and Lynch game is an interesting case (although the game itself isn't very good in my opinion): you control your character in the 3rd person view, but the camera view is that of a person following along with hand-held camera, similar to the show 'Cops'.  It has all the bumps and shakes that you get in real life, and is even dropped and picked up at certain points.  It therefore combines immersive 1st person camera views with 3rd person control.

Quote
<<the topic of view preference>> <<grounds the player in the world>> <<the potential to interact physically with the world in a more realistic way>>  I think you here reference only the first person, player as person and not puppet. I suspect making a pair of eyes looking out of a body at an artificial world takes a highly refined graphics program. Could it be that is why it is often poorly done, or just avoided -- defaulting to the puppet third person?
Yes, I'm talking about first person here.  Generally it's actually fairly simple - you take the player character model and remove or hide the head, and stick a camera there.  Even in games that use a simple floating camera for first person (which is most of them), there is still a fully complete player character model that the player never actually sees, but is used so that other players can see them.

One reason it is not done is so the developers can create high quality models and animations specific to the 1st person view, and consisting only of a pair of arms and the weapons.  Nowadays though the overall quality of every art and animation asset is quite high, so I'm not really sure why more games don't work this way.  Another possibility is that 3rd person animations don't always translate well into 1st person - a 3rd person sidestep can feel a little jerky or jumpy when viewed in 1st person to a player more used to the smooth sliding of a floating camera.

And thus concludes my 4am rambling.  (damn insomnia...)
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RhiannOn
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2011, 12:00:26 PM »

Excellent post Khalan.

An example of another game that would suck in  third person is the Thief series.  With first person view  I'm totally absorbed into the the world of sneaking, apprehension, anxiety, relief and fun.  Plus using headphones for the subtle game ambience, one is totally immersed. No way would this game be the same in third.
Mulitplayer is heaps better in first person as already mentioned for the likes of Battlefield, Halflife etc..the personal involvement again.

I do agree with what you mentioned regarding Batman, Arkham Asylum  and seeing all the cool moves, plus the third person view is only slightly in front and to the left, which is not distracting. This game is worth a buy.  Completely different to what I thought it may be. eg a bit tacky etc, but no way is it this.
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« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2011, 10:38:40 AM »

Thanks for the excellent posts which help me understand what is available.

I think I should mention here the Trainz simulation. There are probably others involving aircraft flights. Anyway, allows the player to shift between a 'floating the air' variety of views which simulate operating a model train layout, and an 'in the engine cab' view (looking forward or back) which simulates actually driving the train. Indeed, there is a physical 'controller' available which simulates the actual throttle and brake controls used by the engineer.

There also has been some work done (of which I have lost contact) on simulating the mechanics of sailing ships for battle games of the navies in the age of sail (Napoleonic and thereabouts). It was supplementary to a board game to cover the dreadful complexity of realistic computation of the effects of ship displacement, currents, wind and sail settings upon the course set by the captain.

Khalan nails the exact problem with war games -- both on the table top and in the computer. Yes, a single player or two player game requires either huge amounts of time or a sensible AI\scale. On the other hand, multiple players could\can be distributed over the chain of command to adjust the scale. 'Monster' games of WWII such as EUROPA can require months to play a year in a two player contest.

Quote
Most realtime wargames consist of telling a single squad at a time what to do while your dozens of other squads hold position.  Or otherwise pausing the game every few seconds to tell each of your hundreds of squads what to do.  The Total War series of games seem to handle this fairly well though.

I was turned-off by the Total War series, at least for the Napoleonic Era. The concept of a player as a commander of an army who directed each squad\battalion almost destroyed the serious faternity of figures wargamers. Most modern Rules Sets based on sound historical research use realistic C&C simulations and the player may not individually direct each squad\battalion. That should make the programming of the AI crisper and more realistic.

I suspect the US Army's free recuiting game is nothing more than the old board game Squad Leader tuned-up and made fancy. The graphics whores have jumped on it to pimp it up greatly. But who always wins?

But I don't wish to spin this thread off onto war games. I have to stop this post now because I'm out of time. Be back later.
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