The Wall Street Protests

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[Lengo]

Have you been following this? Are you aware of these protests?

Is this the beginning of something big, or is it bound to die, un-wholeheartedly?

Here's an ABC world News article about what the protesters are asking for. Warning: There is a video that contains an advertisement that you cannot turn off.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/occupy-wall-street-protesters-americans/story?id=14655263

I am not surprised that this is happening, and I'm also glad that it is. You? What do you think?

I've been angry for years about disparity of income, especially the abusive price of medical care. Also, recently, in my area, the University of Oregon gave a whopping average of 7% raises to university administrators who are already making six figure incomes. This 7% is an average. Some of these big shots got 12.5%, and one got 30%! Meanwhile, the university is in contract negotiations with the support staff (grounds keepers, cafeteria workers, clerks, etc.), offering them a ten to 14 day unpaid furlough.

I've recently had to deal with my local hospital, PeaceHealth's Sacred Heart Hospital. On Memorial Day weekend, I didn't realize it was Memorial Day weekend, and needed to fill one of my prescriptions (a narcotic which I am addicted to) on Memorial Day. When I called my pharmacy to place the order, I was told that they were closed for the day. I called my primary care doctor's clinic, who has after hours urgent care. I was advised to take half of my pain medicines, and if that fails, I should go to an ER to get the medication. I ended up having to go.

I had to sign a 'release of information' form, or 'privacy policy'. I signed this, and also gave them my insurance company's information. When the doctor came to see me, I spent less than 5 minutes with him. I told him the problem, and he gave me a sample bottle of this medicine. I was in and out of this ER in less than 40 minutes, a new record.

At the beginning of July, I got a bill from Emergency Room Doctors who has an address in Ohio. The amount owed is $184 for less than 5 minutes with this doctor. I recognized the doctor's name, but thought this will be taken care of by my MedAdvantage plan. I got another bill from Emergency Room Doctors in August. I then called the hospital's Financial Office, asking who are these people? I told the secretary that I have a MedAdvantage plan and they will pay this bill. I also told her that I have PeaceHealth's Bridge Assistance program that pays my co-payment. I asked for a copy of my award letter, because I have lost mine. That copy never came. Then, In September (last weekend) I received an Explanation of Benefits from my MedAdvantage plan, stating that the hospital billed $550, but Medicare allowed only $220 and paid them, but I was still liable for the co-payment of $50. I called the hospital's Financial Office and told the receptionist that I had Bridge assistance again. She then looked for this record and found it. I don't have to pay the $50 co-payment. I then received a FINAL NOTICE bill from Emergency Room Doctors last week. I called them, and asked who the hell they are. I was damn angry! I was told that I need to provide them with my insurance information. I told them I would not, because I don't know who they are. I then called PeaceHealth's Financial offices and demanded to know who these people are. The clerk told me that they are the hospital's ER doctors. I angrily asked why didn't they get my insurance information. I said "I did business with PeaceHealth, and if the ER doctors are a subcontractor, then it's your responsibility to get them this information." This made the receptionist angry. She said it was my job to provide them with this information. I then really let her have it. I told her that the hospital has been paid $220 for 20 minutes of it's time (one nurse(?)... I dunno. She took my vitals then sat at her computer so she might be just a clerk) and "now you want an additional $184 for less than 5 minutes with this doctor? Your pricing is abusive!" Well, this really ruffled her. She firmly stated that I must give Emergency Room Doctors my insurance info. I told her that I already gave you the information, and if you don't want to do your job, then the doctor won't get paid by my insurance. I told her I have no credit rating because I haven't borrowed any money for over 15 years, so they can't hurt me. I then gave her the punch lines. "It must be great to be a corporation these days, because everybody is doing it. Why? For tax exemptions. They take the new money that has been injected into the system by the Federal Reserve and raise their prices, then use that money to restructure instead of creating jobs, and this gets them a tax benefit -- either a credit or an income adjustment. Of course, you're not the culprit, the gangster, the bank robber. You just drive the get away car. How does it feel to help a corporation that helps people, then puts them in the poor house?   I then hung up, and after considering it, I called the Emergency Room doctors, gave the receptionist my insurance information, and told her the same thing I told PeaceHealth's Financial Office receptionist, adding a big "Shame on you!" to it. I am now feeling pretty stupid for helping them get paid.

Come on! This hospital would get away with billing a total of $734 for twenty minutes of their time if you are uninsured? Such practices must stop!

Meanwhile, and very recently, dockworkers in Seattle, WA and Los Angeles, CA have walked out on strike, citing poor working conditions. In the Los Angeles strike, a Catholic Priest joined with the demonstrators, commenting on the restrooms and other things provided for these people.

Also, Obama created the National Labor Relations Board (the NLRB). This agency created a rule: You don't need a vote to create a union, and SOME people are taking advantage of it. Meanwhile, the Republicans in the House are working hard to dissolve the NLRB. Very hard!

So, what do you think? Are these anti-Wall Street people the beginning of the next social uprising? Are you angry about price gouging. poor employment rates, and income disparity? Are you aware that Amazon.com paid less than 2% of their profits in income taxes in 2010? Are you aware that Boeing has paid ZERO income taxes since 2006? Are you angry? Or are you even paying attention?


All through history, the aristocrats have been brought to their knees again and again, usually by violence. People came to America to get away from the oppression of European aristocrats, only to find themselves oppressed by American aristocrats! Are these Anti-Wall Street people just the tip of the iceberg? Or are they going to go away soon? Will they be dispersed by military action, or are they going to take up arms when the military points guns at them? After all, the only way to fight fire is with fire. You can't argue with sick minds, and the corporate greed mongers are very, very sick. Search Google for 'Top Tax Evaders'. You'll find that quite a few site turn up that list various corporations and big shots that make FULL USE of all the tax credits that the Federal Income Tax code allows.

Actually, I'm proud of these anti-Wall Street people,and if I had the strength, I'd be out there marching with them. And if I'm shot at, I'd get me a weapon and shoot back. I think the problem has gone on long enough. The rich pay less percentage of their income in taxes than the middle does, and it's a damn shame on the USA that this is going on. The elite only THINK they're elite.

sidebar:

A couple months ago, I took Buster for a long walk. We ended up in the tourist district, exhausted and hungry. It was a fairly cool day, but I knew it would be better for us to sit outside than inside because inside it was too noisy. I opened the door and stood there, trying to get a waitress' attention. I stood there too long. Some well dressed tourist yelled at me "Hey! It's cold and you're letting in a draft!" I thought a moment, then replied "You've got a fancy coat, so shut up and put it on!" That pissed this 40 something year old off good! He went and got a waitress. This did me more good than it did him.  

[CoconutKid]

If I may suggest, the so-called American Revolution was a petty squabble amongst the propertied class with a heavy dose of propaganda laid on the free poor to do the fighting. The Americans with property wanted representation in the British Parliament, among other things. George III was a handy "straw-man" for the Parliament's refusal to extend its seats to overseas dominions.

The independent Americans tried a "Parliamentary" system until the Constitution of 1789, a measure of desperation of the propertied class.

It's sad that Americans know so little about the French Revolution from the French view. They knew the reason for aristocrats to be reviled as a class. Our current, corrupt tax system is a scary startling parallel to the French system just before the Revolution.

[Lengo]

If I may suggest, the so-called American Revolution was a petty squabble amongst the propertied class with a heavy dose of propaganda laid on the free poor to do the fighting. The Americans with property wanted representation in the British Parliament, among other things. George III was a handy "straw-man" for the Parliament's refusal to extend its seats to overseas dominions.

The independent Americans tried a "Parliamentary" system until the Constitution of 1789, a measure of desperation of the propertied class.

And after the Constitution, congress got together and had fist fights at nearly every meeting! They argued over everything intensely. And fist fights were not the only thing on the agenda. Men had duels to the death! The most famous one was between Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr. These duels occurred about once per month, and even more frequently.  The person responsible for bringing some civility between these men was Dolly Madison, wife of James Madison who was president. She had parties at the white house where people were expected to act civilized. After such parties, Congress started behaving more gentlemanly.

..... Our current, corrupt tax system is a scary parallel to the French system just before the Revolution.

You're right, but it's not frightening. It's invigorating! Finally, people are getting angry enough to lose their fear and get the psychopaths to buck up and show some responsibility to society! It is past time that people lose their fear and DO something other than complain among themselves. Some people write their congressmen, but this fails. Nearly everyone complains about the corruption, but nobody wants a fight. They lose automatically because they're unwilling to fight! It is time to speak louder, and the way to do this is make bold statements by marching. And if this fails, it is time to actually do battle. The crooks say they don't break the law. They obey the tax laws, but they helped write them.  They ask for and get deregulation, then they do predatory lending. Then, when people can't pay, they take people's homes from them, then they tell the government that they're too big to fail! THIS IS NUTZ!

And hey! When I was in college 30 years ago, my economics professors kept telling us that the United States needs to move toward socialism. Now, 30 years later, I meet college students and ask them what they're being taught in economics. They tell me that they're being taught the same thing!

Wall Street and banking needs deregulation? Look at the late 70s and early 80s when there was the Savings and Loan Scandal. And look at just yesterday, when the banks took people's homes from them, then told the government that they need even more! These people are psychopaths! They show no moral responsibility to this nation. They don't give a damn about HOW they make money. They HAVE to make money, and tons of it, like it's an obsession! They seem to never have enough, and they also tell the 'little people' that the little people don't know what they're talking about. This is a load of crap!

Government is here to protect us. This is their job. This is what they're suppose to be doing. The people that say that a free market governs itself are fools. A market doesn't govern! The people in the market govern, and when let alone to make their own rules, those with the money are the ones that make 'em. They say "Our policy is..." Screw that! It's time to negotiate again! And it's time to play dirty, just like they do. It is time to make this a national discussion, and it is time to pay taxes enough to provide the protection. Government, like any business needs funding, and that comes from taxation. It is time to tell government to close the loopholes! And it is time to tell banking and other industries NO! STOP ACTING LIKE SELFISH BRATS AND DO WHAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE NATION.

This has happened over and over throughout history. What is going on should not surprise anyone. These college kids have started a movement. I for one, support them fully! And these demonstrators are not just college kids. The demonstrators come from many age groups, and many industries.

Scary? I don't think so. It's better to die fighting with passion for justice than sit idly because you're afraid of losing something. You have something very important to gain! You won't get it by fearing. Your opponent uses fear to keep you in check. It is time to make them afraid! If they tell you "you can be replaced", it's time to ask them "by who?"

I think the whole thing is invigorating. People are dead without passion. I'm hoping that people see this as an opportunity to right what's been wrong for decades, and I'm hoping that they have no fear and can rely on each other for help if they get fired for telling the truth and standing by the truth! Fired? From what? A socially unjust corporation? Well now, that'd be a blessing wouldn't it? You'd no longer be working just for yourself and the corrupt ass that keeps you off the playing field. You'd be working for everyone.

Socialism is working just fine in Scandinavian countries. There is no reason it cannot work here. Socialism does not take away people's incentive to excel. It just gives 'em a better reason to excel. If you have talent at something, you have a moral obligation to put it to good use for society's benefit, not just your own. But here in the 'good old USA', it's about getting a piece of the pie, and there are many unscrupulous people who'll do just about anything to get that piece, while the rest (and most) of the people say "well, what can you do?". These anti-Wall Street people are showing you what you can do! Yes. It can be dangerous, but that rush of adrenaline along with the knowledge that you know you're doing the right thing, is very  invigorating. It feels good to feel alive! "Well, what can you do?" is already dead. It gives up before it even tries!

All I want to know is whether or not people are willing to make a sacrifice and work for the right thing instead of themselves. I already know that nearly everyone is complaining. I now want to know if there are more who are willing to stand up and loudly say "stop the selfish behavior or else we'll stop it ourselves!" Are there more people this passionate? A few have already shown that they are. I want to know how many there are. That's what I want to know. Are you? Or are you satisfied enough with the status quo, even though it's far out of control, and those who are in control are NOT your government -- they are the corporations who leave you to pay for a shell of a government that has no power to oversee the abusers and make them behave like patriots.  Have you had enough of this already or not?

[CoconutKid]

When I said, "Our current, corrupt tax system is a scary parallel to the French system just before the Revolution," I did not mean scary in the sense of "fear" but rather in the sense of startle or surprise as in when one unexpectedly realizes déjà vu (promnesia).

Using the methodology of the French Revolution to root-out the aristocrats may be effective, but it's a rough path that's hard on everyone in the short term.

Besides, economic poverty has some commonality with alcoholism - it's too easy to deny as one sinks slowly further into it, one keeps identifying with the sober(rich) until one finally wakes up at rock-bottom in the gutter. Then there's a difference - the alcoholic becomes intospective, while the poverty stricken becomes angry.

But the U.S. has a distance to go until it gets to the tipping point of mass self-recognition of the poverty stricken.

[Lengo]

When I said, "Our current, corrupt tax system is a scary parallel to the French system just before the Revolution," I did not mean scary in the sense of "fear" but rather in the sense of startle or surprise as in when one unexpectedly realizes déjà vu (promnesia).

I don't think that anyone paying attention is surprised, but mention the parallel to them and then they're startled. Kids get taught about the French Revolution in High School, then say "So what!"  They don't care. They don't see it as important. But then when conditions mirror the same conditions, then they realize the significance.

But the U.S. has a distance to go until it gets to the tipping point of mass self-recognition of the poverty stricken.

Don't be sure about that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/04/us/anti-wall-street-protests-spread-to-other-cities.html

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2011/10/oregons_probability_of_recessi.html

The second link above points to Oregon, where I live, but this article points to other places as well, and there are similar stories on Google News about indications of another downturn in the economy, such as the Dollar is rising against the Euro(?). There's problems in Europe too.

People are getting very frustrated. They're blaming the banking system and the World Bank. They're including the Federal Reserve. And some are (correctly) blaming the corporate tax codes, stating what I have stated: The corporations are using the money injected into the system to restructure instead of creating jobs with it (and they get a tax break for restructuring). Some people are blaming the economic analysts, saying that their reports cause worry in industry, and the industries, in turn, take protective stances.

It does appear that people have taken their blinders off. They seem to be more concerned and more vocal instead of taking the wait and see attitude and putting their faith that governments will fix things. It will be very interesting to see how far people will go, and how radical governments are willing to get to change the whole Keynesian economic system that's in place.

I believe what I've been taught -- we need a more socialist view and Capitalism is killing people. Young adults are graduating from colleges with enormous college debt, making them indentured to an oppressive Capitalist system. Their hope is being dismantled as their debt grows. Kids without economic resources to go to college are frustrated, knowing that they'll likely be paid poverty level wages. Meanwhile, the Conservatives are desperately searching for a candidate to run against Obama, who is truly a Progressive. Obama has been telling us for four years that corporations pose a real threat to America and he created the NLRB who made new rules (not laws) that state that workers don't need a vote to create a union in a workplace, and corporations are fighting this with lawsuits, stating that they do not have to post signs in their workplace that say you have the right to collectively bargain.

It's all very interesting. Big history is unfolding before your very eyes! Are big changes going to come peacefully, or will it take militant action by both sides to come to a resolution? And it's not just an ideological (limited to the U.S.) problem. It's a world wide problem, and the problem has grown so large over the last 100 years (brought on by industrialization of the world) that a peaceful solution seems impossible. Those who have, want to keep it. Those who don't aren't willing to listen to more "it's working" rhetoric. And in analysis, the real issue is disparity of income -- those who have money, hoard it, but have been asked, prodded, and given incentives to redistribute it by creating more jobs, but they are unwilling. Those that don't have money, are tired of trying to make ends meet, and aren't as complacent as they used to be. The wide, flat screen TV that brings a "theater experience" into your home at a reasonable price, is not keeping people satisfied. And speaking from personal experience, Social Security is not very secure. This too, is a monster in disguise.  Thanks to the Federal Reserve's formula for calculating the Consumer Price Index, people on Social Security get poorer every year because they're not kept up with true inflation.

More and more people are entering the fray. My question remains: "How many will enter, and how far are they willing to go?" Is this the beginnings of a real revolution? Or is it just venting of frustration? Are the capitalists willing to make concessions? Or is the labor market going to dismantle the corporation, and put an end to them once and forever?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation

Read this and weep! There enough varieties of a corporation to make a zoo! Over time, the corporation has become more and more corrupt. The Capitalists use them for their own ends (tax shelters), while the labor force has no access to them. The Capitalists also use them to form their own unions, but they don't call them unions, and the Capitalists fight dirty to keep the labor force to from creating their own.  People are starting to realize this. Just how much of a fight are they willing to engage in?

[CoconutKid]

... Kids get taught about the French Revolution in High School, then say "So what!"  They don't care. ...

As the surprised owners say on the "Antiques Roadshow" when given good news about the value of their item, "Are you kidding me?"

Are you saying that the French Revolution in the state prescribed history curriculum takes more than one or two pages in the Readers Digest style book, and\or more than 15 minutes of the 'teacher babble' ??

So far as I have seen, the American view taught in high school and in graduate survey courses is dominated by Edmund Burke's Reflections on the Revolution in France (1790). His book is not so much studied today as part of Revolution studies, but rather as a classic of conservative political philosophy. But that is what is the Anglophone view of the French revolution is. From that, can you guess what high school students know about the Russian Revolution?

But you can come closer to home and ask if high school students know about how Portfolio Diaz came to the end of his Presidency.

And then there is Cuba. Are you suggesting that high school students in Oregon may have a different view than those in Florida?

[Lengo]

As the surprised owners say on the "Antiques Roadshow" when given good news about the value of their item, "Are you kidding me?"

  A keen observation, Coconut!  Too funny!

Are you saying that the French Revolution in the state prescribed history curriculum takes more than one or two pages in the Readers Digest style book, and\or more than 15 minutes of the 'teacher babble' ??

I dunno. It's been a long time since I went to high school, so I don't know what's in the history books these days. However, I do know that kids aren't keen on history, at least here in my poverty stricken neighborhood. I live in the Tenement District. Only a handful of my neighbors have half a brain.

So far as I have seen, the American view taught in high school and in graduate survey courses is dominated by Edmund Burke's Reflections on the Revolution in France (1790). His book is not so much studied today as part of Revolution studies, but rather as a classic of conservative political philosophy. But that is what is the Anglophone view of the French revolution is. From that, can you guess what high school students know about the Russian Revolution?

Edmund Who? Yes, I can guess what they know about the Bolsheviks. They know about as much as I know about Edmund Burke.  

But you can come closer to home and ask if high school students know about how Portfolio Diaz came to the end of his Presidency.

Portfolio Who? Again I must admit ignorance. But probably some high schoolers know more about him than I do, and m'thinks it would be an exercise in frustration to try to find out because 1. Kids get bored in dumbed down classrooms, and 2. They're more concerned about who has the best Android Cell Phone, and 3. They hear Mom and Dad complain about the world being nuts. They understand frustration better than ambition.

And then there is Cuba. Are you suggesting that high school students in Oregon may have a different view than those in Florida?

Absolutely! I know for certain that people in different parts of the U.S. see things differently, due to my adventures when I was a mere lad of twenty-something. Like many baby boomers on the West Coast, I went looking for America, and found that no matter where you go, there's people who discriminate against different people. For example, the rednecks of Why-o-me-ing have next to no respect for Native Americans, and rednecks in Tex-ass, considered women as second class citizens back in 1972. They might see things differently now, but I don't know how much differently they see. However, I doubt that their basic mindset has changed because 1. Kids get bored in dumbed down classrooms, and 2. They're more concerned about who has the best Android Cell Phone, and 3. They hear Mom and Dad complain about the world being nuts. People are products of their environment.

One thing that can be said about these demonstrations: At the very least, a discussion has started. The Liberals are saying 'yeah, yeah, yeah' like the Beatles, and the conservatives are saying 'no, no! don'tcha bother me no mo' like the Rolling Stones did (am I showing my age?), and both camps are frightened at the prospect of real change. However, I believe that the sentiment of the demonstrators runs deep in both camps, regardless of what either thinks needs to be done. Only time will tell how many worms will come out of the woodwork, but in my social circle, these strikes have got people saying 'this is good', but they say it with reservations. Nearly everyone I've talked to has a personal anecdote to tell how they've been wronged by the current state of affairs. Nearly everyone, except for those who get paid handsomely, that is.

So... LET THE GAMES BEGIN! After giving this more thought, I can only come to the conclusion that a national open discussion has started. Where the discussion will end up, I can't say. Even if these demonstrations are merely a flash in the pan, they have the analysts talking. This will, in turn, get more people talking. And quite frankly, I'm afraid to hear what Rush Limbaugh has to say, because I'm sure that his words will only make me angry.


p.s. I killed Juanito of Tropico 3 yesterday. I admit it. I am proud of it. I have no remorse or fear of the consequences. He needed to die, and I'm glad that I rid my islands of him!  

[Face]

It's reagan's fault. Trickle down economics?  I don't think so.

[AMD4EVER]

I'm going to issue a word of caution before my post.   I am a fiscal conservative and a social moderate.   Social issues are not exactly my passion either.   I'm more or less about fiscal sanity so this sort of debate really catches my attention :)

Before analyzing whether the protests are good or bad we first have to know what they are about.   I've heard about them on NPR, CNN, and Fox News and all agree that it is pretty hard to put a finger on any one thing that they are really about.   The initial goal was to remove financial influence from politics.   Yeah, it's hard to believe that "Occupy Wall Street" came from such different beginnings.   Now that the movement is so large it is much more like the Tea Party movement where they have one over arching demand but a thousand different ways to get there.   So I'll break this down into parts.

1.   What do I think about the Occupy Wall Street movements initial goal of removing financial influence from politics?

Tough call.   With people and corporations being able to fund politicians it allows someone who starts with $0 to compete with a billionaire and win.   Anyone can win under this system.   However it means that these politicians will be largely influenced by the people who gave them money in the past and may give them more in the future.   What what's the lesser of two evils?  I'll side with the Wall Street protesters here.   Let's stop having politicians who are in the pockets of the highest bidder.

2.  Tax the rich

We live in a society where the bottom 50% pays somewhere around 1%-2% of all taxes and the top 1% pays close to 40%.   That same bottom 50% holds about 15% of the net worth of the US and the top 1% has about 35% of the wealth.   So there are two families of thought here.   The one for the Wall Street protesters is why does the top 1% need to have twice the amount of money that the bottom 50% has?  The second is why does the top 1% pay more than their share by a small margin while the bottom 50% doesn't pay anywhere near their share and still they cry that the rich need to be taxed more?  On this one I fall on the side against the protesters.   We had a system where 50% of all American's hardly know what it is to pay taxes and are frankly offended by the notion that they should have to.   I think this makes for a nation full of people who don't feel any sense of obligation to the society because they've never invested in it.   In my opinion the best tax policy right now is to repeal the entire Bush tax cut for rich and middle/poor class to help balance the budget.   Yeah, I know it is an unpopular stance but I think it is the right one.   Share the burden, fix the fiscal mess.

3.  End corporate welfare

This one goes back to #1 where politicians get fiscally friendly with their corporate partners.   Should we end these kickbacks to the corporations and treat them all equally.   No tax breaks, no grants, and no special treatment.   But this doesn't just mean for Enron (God rest their miserable soul) and others of their size but also anyone making green technology or anything else of the sort.   Anyone out to make a profit now or in the future should not be given any special treatment.



I think this covers the main points they are trying to make.   Some other more extreme notions are being thrown around like force redistribution of wealth and the abolition of capitalism but for the most part they are sticking to relatively mainstream proposals.   I think that overall the protests have brought to the forefront a lot of good discussions that need to be had.   I don't always agree with their conclusions but there is no denying that the problems that are being protested do exist.

[pad11]

I, too, will issue a word of caution before my response.

I have never seen so much energy spent in the name of entitlement in my life.  It is aimless and shiftless and not in any way shape or form an organic movement.  When you have organized labor bussing in people to make crowds look bigger, well, there you go.  When you have MoveOn.org financing an event, well, there you go. This is staged and fabricated and, in the grand scheme of things, very very very small and totally insignificant.

Sorry, that may seem harsh but as a widowed father of two young boys, it infuriates me to see ANYONE raised to believe that they are ENTITLED to anything...at all.  A college education does not gaurantee you a job.  A job does not gaurantee you health care. 

We have lost our way.  We have very little time to get it back or WE are GREECE.

Sorry, that sounds harsh, I apologize, but it is exactly how I feel.

Take care,
pat