Patrician III: What does the gameplay actually involve?

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[City Builder]

Im not breaking out the manual just yet though Im pretty sure it's in the drawer in the bathroom where most of the manuals are.

So I reinstalled it onto Vista (it works on vista by the way, don't even need to run it as administrator or anything fancy like that), and played one of the tutorials but got seriously bored reading the dialogue at the bottom of the screen so decided to just jump right in.

Welll... Maybe that was a bad move.  Im trying ot figure out what exactly I'm supposed to be doing.

I know that I can load up my ship with cargo, and run around from port to port trying to find another port that will buy it at a higher price than I paid but sheesh, how am I to remember how much I actually paid for some of my cargo.  It would seem that there is an averager in the trade window that tells me my average price paid (at least that's what I think it is, it's the number all the way to the right usually in gold color), I would assume that if I can find some sucker (errr, I mean customer) that will pay me more than what is listed there then I should be making a profit on the deal.  Is this right so far?

Okay next I see that I can build some houses in the town if there is enough supplies for it (if not, out I GO  to try to find the supplies I need on the cheap which isn't too often) but once I build something like a half timbered house, it's put up for rent Im guessing, but it seems that even if I were to charge extortionist prices for rent, the taxes are still higher than I'll make in the rent, so it's a losing proposition.

But now, how would I know when Im in my own home port, and looking at the trade menu, when to buy stuff so that I can make a profit at the other ports that I try to sell it at?  There is no magical trade menu that tells me what other ports are buying for and it does seem to fluctuate a little bit at least, but all this running around with a load of honey or a load of skins in my hold from town to town to town to town to town CAN'T possibly be the way the game is to be played else how is it that you all enjoy that so much?

There must be far more to this than is on the surface to me but what and how to get at the real information to make proper good judgement purchases is beyond me.  I mean if my town is selling honey for 93/ton, how in the world am I going to know if there is another town out there that is willing to buy it for more than that, without going from town to town to town, all in the meantime racking up my tax bills thus making whatever profit i might find 10 towns down the line totally nullified.

What is it?  What is the secret?  Where is this information that I should have to be able to make wise purchases and even wiser sales?  Isn't there any towns that like put out an order and say "We are looking to buy 500 skins at 1453/ton until Jun 4565, after that we can't guarantee the prices any longer" or something, anything that would let me make some kind of non guess purchases?

Okay that's enough for you experts to mull over and try to help me enjoy what seems like it should be a game right up my alley, what with helping to build up my town, and trading and transferign cargo around and trying to avoid pirates, it all seems so exciting on paper... Help me to find the excitement in the actual game please.

Thanks,
CB

[katmandu2]

  Good Morning!

My game hasn't been delivered yet, but from what you describe, it sounds alot like Port Royale.  In that game, if viewing the map, you could place your cursor over the name of each city and it would tell you what goods they were looking for and what goods they had to offer.  Could Patrician lll be the same way?

Kat

[City Builder]

Indeed you can put your mouse over the port, though it doesn't seem to show what they want, maybe it shows what they produce there.  There are some ports that have distinct icons next to their port dot, like one has a iron gerter, yet I didn't find iron ore, or pig iron or iron parts any cheaper there or any more expensive there than the rest of the area.  The only profitable thing I found were skins from some out of the way place that was selling them for like 653 ducats and most places buying them for well over 1000, though of course the more you sell to one particular city the less they wish (ahem, the less they WILL) pay you for them.  So off in your ship you go again to try to find someone else to buy the rest while still trying to make a profit.  I think one of the hardest things for me to deal with is not knowing exactly if Im making a profit on something or not.  Averages drive me crazy when it comes to money.  I like to know exactly if Im making a profit or not.  Telling me that my average purchase price was 350 does me no good if Im only selling 2 items at 356 ducats in my opinion.  I don't know maybe I'll have to open that drawer of wisdom in the throne room and see if it really does hold the book of wisdom for the H league and what's going on.  Unless Max and Pat come along and wish to impart their years of playtime wisdom on us.

[katmandu2]

I think one of the hardest things for me to deal with is not knowing exactly if Im making a profit on something or not.

Very frustrating, is it not? I remember playing Port Royale, which was one of my first games.  I kept a spreadsheet just so I'd know how much I paid versus how much I sold a product for.  Then, just when you have your routes figured out, the prices would change...resulting in a lot of crossing out/erasing!!!  It seems like there should be a better way...

Unless Max and Pat come along and wish to impart their years of playtime wisdom on us.

That would be great! Especially since there isn't a dedicated forum here for Patrician lll.  Maybe one of the players here have consolidated their notes and would be willing to share!!!

Kat

[Unitedcat]

CB!!
There is some routs you can do trading on in the beginning of the game --- These routs is almost guaranteed to give you a profit.

Now I don't remember what routs it was --- Maybe Max or Pat knows them. 

Or you can read the old forums at Ascaron (If they still have them).

I remember the P3 forums --- When a Moderator was Crying when someone used "cheat-o-matic" to get more money in the game. 

In fact I have used  'cheat-o-matic'  in P3 many times 


P.S.
I think it was in P3, that Pat played the Same Game for a whole summer.    (I'm not sure about it though  )

[rlpowell]

played one of the tutorials but got seriously bored reading the dialogue at the bottom of the screen so decided to just jump right in.

Welll... Maybe that was a bad move.

I'm afraid it was, yes.  As far as I can tell there is *NO* strategy guide, at least in English, for this game *anywhere*, and the tutorial contains essential information not in the manual.

I know that I can load up my ship with cargo, and run around from port to port trying to find another port that will buy it at a higher price than I paid but sheesh, how am I to remember how much I actually paid for some of my cargo.

In any trade view, the number on the far right, next to the gold piece, is the average of how much you paid for your cargo.  That is, if you buy 1 load at 100, and 1 load at 50, the number there will be 75.

It would seem that there is an averager in the trade window that tells me my average price paid (at least that's what I think it is, it's the number all the way to the right usually in gold color), I would assume that if I can find some sucker (errr, I mean customer) that will pay me more than what is listed there then I should be making a profit on the deal.  Is this right so far?

If you can sell for more than that number you'll make a profit, yes, but not for the reasons you stated; see above.

Okay next I see that I can build some houses in the town if there is enough supplies for it (if not, out I GO  to try to find the supplies I need on the cheap which isn't too often) but once I build something like a half timbered house, it's put up for rent Im guessing, but it seems that even if I were to charge extortionist prices for rent, the taxes are still higher than I'll make in the rent, so it's a losing proposition.

The point of providing housing is not to make a profit; it's to keep the townspeople happy and provide workers for your shops.  Also, the more people in town, the more demand for goods.

But now, how would I know when Im in my own home port, and looking at the trade menu, when to buy stuff so that I can make a profit at the other ports that I try to sell it at?  There is no magical trade menu that tells me what other ports are buying for and it does seem to fluctuate a little bit at least, but all this running around with a load of honey or a load of skins in my hold from town to town to town to town to town CAN'T possibly be the way the game is to be played else how is it that you all enjoy that so much?

So running around from town to town *is* part of the game, but generally if you have to do that you've already screwed up.  Getting a good price is very simple: only by when the buy price is 10% or less higher than the sell price.  If a town has a billion of something, the buy price will be the same as the sell price.  That's the magic base value of an item; you want to buy as close to that base value as possible.  Some items, in practice, never even come *close* to the base value, like meat.

Also, I take notes on buy prices, but that's just me, you don't actually have to do that.

Isn't there any towns that like put out an order and say "We are looking to buy 500 skins at 1453/ton until Jun 4565, after that we can't guarantee the prices any longer" or something, anything that would let me make some kind of non guess purchases?

Yes; go to the town hall and look at the notices.

Maybe I should go write a guide for this game.  Would others be interested?

Oh, and my question: where the *HELL* do you sell fish?  My fish shop is producing fish at 467 a load *cost*.  *Everybody* makes fish.  :(

-Robin

[MaxBeta]

    OK CB..is getting his feet wet..  so this will be my attempt to calm the Patrician "waters" before he tosses us all overboard   hehe **ArrgHH**

I do hope pat can chime in anytime..hopefully while I'm creating this post!!  

(I'll place your post segments in quotes and answer in Red)

I know that I can load up my ship with cargo, and run around from port to port trying to find another port that will buy it at a higher price than I paid but sheesh, how am I to remember how much I actually paid for some of my cargo.  It would seem that there is an averager in the trade window that tells me my average price paid (at least that's what I think it is, it's the number all the way to the right usually in gold color), I would assume that if I can find some sucker (errr, I mean customer) that will pay me more than what is listed there then I should be making a profit on the deal.  Is this right so far?

What you've described..Running around trying to buy low and sell high is what kills many Patrician players enthusiasm.  So here's what you do to take the heat of this frustration.  Don't try to remember the prices..they always vary within a certain range.  Picking a product that is generally needed by other cities is where you start. Iron Furs and Wine..with Cloth and Whale oil as secondary choices.  These are good ones to buy and sell.  Buy the Iron in Lubeck and Stockholm..also Riga if you don't get enough in Stockholm.  (buy Iron 300-330 & sell 400-430+)  (buy Furs 700-800 & sell 1000-1400+) (buy Wine 200-250 & sell 350+) (buy cloth 220-250 & sell  300+) (buy Whale Oil 80- 90 & sell 125+)  This price range will keep you from ever losing money on the listed products.  You will run into prices even lower than the threshold I've posted.  Take advantage of the rockbottom..as it increases your profit line.  

next segment:

Okay next I see that I can build some houses in the town if there is enough supplies for it (if not, out I GO  to try to find the supplies I need on the cheap which isn't too often) but once I build something like a half timbered house, it's put up for rent Im guessing, but it seems that even if I were to charge extortionist prices for rent, the taxes are still higher than I'll make in the rent, so it's a losing proposition.

Becoming a Landlord isn't recommended until you have a good trade route working and have a steady..dependable incoming cash.   Don't try to compete with the Town on rent either..when the time comes to build your own housing.  The lower housing doesn't bring in a good rent amount.. so I wait to build Merchant housing only and leave the rent on Normal..these houses make a good income..but all this comes when the time is right.  More later on Housing I'm sure.

next segment:

But now, how would I know when Im in my own home port, and looking at the trade menu, when to buy stuff so that I can make a profit at the other ports that I try to sell it at?  There is no magical trade menu that tells me what other ports are buying for and it does seem to fluctuate a little bit at least, but all this running around with a load of honey or a load of skins in my hold from town to town to town to town to town CAN'T possibly be the way the game is to be played else how is it that you all enjoy that so much?

To simplify what you are wanting to know..is to know what Towns are producing and your most important your home Town.  In your town you can take the product that's on your Trade list and distribute it to the closest neighbor towns and always have that profit margin I posted earlier.  Also you can hire a Warehouse employee to collect this product for you while you are out on selling trip..use the lowest price for him to buy..and most of the time he will get even a better price that you do.  This will keep your running to a minimum.  That's said..as soon as you've doubled you initial amount of cash.. Hire A Captain.. now that you've had hands on port checks..now Set him up to buy and sell the same way..items the whole ball of wax.  There's good trade routes and they should be used in the beginning as you want to keep growing..and not have to borrow cash.. you should never have to do that at all.
The enjoyment comes from controlling your destiny having the ships run themselves while you build ships for even more convoys..and work on your City's needs thus you reputation increases.  Plus you have to prepare and afford to go to other towns..join Guilds but firstly setup Warehouses..   Hopefully you won't be called d out for Blockade duty by the Alderman..  more on this later too.

next segment:

There must be far more to this than is on the surface to me but what and how to get at the real information to make proper good judgement purchases is beyond me.  I mean if my town is selling honey for 93/ton, how in the world am I going to know if there is another town out there that is willing to buy it for more than that, without going from town to town to town, all in the meantime racking up my tax bills thus making whatever profit i might find 10 towns down the line totally nullified.

I know you've read where pat and I say the is game is Deep..when I was a newbie..I had NO idea..how deep..now I justsay it is Deep.  Don't allow it to overwhelm you..or try to recall what is what or where..  Learning by setting up a simple and profitable trade route..make enough cash to build more ships..and in doing so you will see what is needed to actually build the ships..as they take cash and certain amounts of specific products..PLUS time to build the suckers..  I see you've noticed your TAX BILL..the way I'm describing for you to startup...will keep this cost at a minimum.  The first six months you should only have a small sailor and Captain bill to pay.  Once your cash is growing steady you'll need a fully Armed and Staffed pirate hunter Crayer.. there's much more detail on this too.

Next segment:

What is it?  What is the secret?  Where is this information that I should have to be able to make wise purchases and even wiser sales?  Isn't there any towns that like put out an order and say "We are looking to buy 500 skins at 1453/ton until Jun 4565, after that we can't guarantee the prices any longer" or something, anything that would let me make some kind of non guess purchases?

There's no secret.. all the Info you could possibly need is provided by the game.   Once you're established there are data sheets that give you status reports P/L statement..labor costs..everything. ( I pretty much play the game from these angle)  I didn't mention the AMOUNT of products to buy..as it will vary.. some products take up more cargo space than the other type..the BALES are biggest so you need to buy fewer to balance out having room for a variety of products on your list.  IF I have a chance to describe how and what to setup for a Trade route..this will be explained.  There should be NO guess work to  your purchases, those aforementioned products will be your lifeblood for the first year of game play.  Even if you add more Convoys and Captains. Hang in there..

last segment:

Okay that's enough for you experts to mull over and try to help me enjoy what seems like it should be a game right up my alley, what with helping to build up my town, and trading and transferign cargo around and trying to avoid pirates, it all seems so exciting on paper... Help me to find the excitement in the actual game please

I can say this with all humility..and I've played EVERY one of the Patricians from day one..alpha-beta--I_II_III kaboom!!  and..I'm no expert even now,  I keep learning how to do things better..catch the right moment etc.  Maybe pat has more playing skills..as I know we both have the Hours on End racked up on these titles. I think where most player become frustrated and cannot find enjoyment..is you simply  cannot and the game will not allow you to Buzz saw through it ..it takes the same patience that building Mods does..then some.  The game play gratification comes from small rewards at first..you build on that to a greater achievement.. and so on.  Once you rise in stature in the Towns..things speed up..and becoming Mayor can be great, but it is a distraction too..  Finally becoming Alderman.. Hey you are running the show..and big feast is the only spot where you can relax.. you still need to take care of your business... watch your back.  At this point your wealth should be sufficient to Build New towns.. and run off to the Mediterranean or Americas if you feel like it.. But all the City Walls to build and Dealing with the snobby, lying Prince..and Bandit mercenaries..you'll have plenty to keep you occupied.. boredom may occur as the simple 2D visuals may put you to sleep.  I only watch the Map to check for "black Dots" as they might be Pirates.

Well this is just a taste of what could be elaborated on. The intricacies of each facet of the game took me many games to figure out.  Port Royal was "simplified" to some degree.. but tried to hold the same format of familiarity..and I played it a lot too..but Patrician is THE Trade Sim I respect and play the most.

I have Trade Routes pre setup that I use.  Once you've developed a good one..just keep using it.. that is where your first good cash will come from..

<whew> ..this one hand typing is for the birds  arrgH!!  

[MaxBeta]

   Hopefully this incites some discussions on the ins and outs of Patrician ..and will have a fair mount of Opinion inserted.  It's recommended having experience in dissecting the games AI as it deceptively reacts to different types of player input and styles of play.

Here's a short list for a guide:  Each could have a player's personal preference as how to approach the subject...but in most cases only one way will achieve a good outcome. 

• Creating Monopolies
• Auction strategies
• Loaning cash
• Floating Warehouses
• Bribing the Right Guy
• Expeditions or Trade only
• Pirates got too Powerful
• Harbor Patrol is it Foolish
• Alderman assignments
• Dealing with Requests and Gifts
• Seamanship 101
• Weaponry Ship and Town
• Controlling the Political Vote
• Ima fleer not a fighter
• Looting the Pirate nest
• Preparing to Build a New Town
• the long list of things NOT to do

If anyone is interested in anything on this list, let's discuss it.  I'll keep adding to the list as one topic becomes thoroughly hashed out.   

[City Builder]

  Hopefully this incites some discussions on the ins and outs of Patrician ..and will have a fair mount of Opinion inserted.  It's recommended having experience in dissecting the games AI as it deceptively reacts to different types of player input and styles of play.

Here's a short list for a guide:  Each could have a player's personal preference as how to approach the subject...but in most cases only one way will achieve a good outcome. 

• Creating Monopolies
• Auction strategies
• Loaning cash
• Floating Warehouses
• Bribing the Right Guy
• Expeditions or Trade only
• Pirates got too Powerful
• Harbor Patrol is it Foolish
• Alderman assignments
• Dealing with Requests and Gifts
• Seamanship 101
• Weaponry Ship and Town
• Controlling the Political Vote
• Ima fleer not a fighter
• Looting the Pirate nest
• Preparing to Build a New Town
• the long list of things NOT to do

If anyone is interested in anything on this list, let's discuss it.  I'll keep adding to the list as one topic becomes thoroughly hashed out.   

That all makes it sound certainly quite exciting.  Thanks everybody for the responses, I don't have time to read them right now in full but rest assured I will as I think this might be the game for me this weekend.  I need something new and since I never played this past about 10 minutes when I first bought it, it's still completely new to me.

[Oregon Taz]

After completing the tutorial, should we attempt the campaign